A Simple Theory

Discussion in 'IntroSpectrum' started by Sodium, Aug 14, 2007.

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  1. Yahunyahti

    Yahunyahti New Member

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    ???

    Dood, I trained Double in the art of being unsonnable.
    I cannot be fathered for I existed before time, as the source, before form.

    I know that you believed you stumbled across some grandiose thought when you posted this thread and your Fort made on sand came tumbling down when I poured the my liquid response on its foundation (not to mention Menaz and I have completely hikjacked your thread), but it'll be alright. Chalk it up and move forward, grasshopper. You'll live to fight another day.
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  2. Yahunyahti

    Yahunyahti New Member

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    Interesting thread concept. Think I'll spin this off in the Alley.
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  3. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

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    Go for it! LOL!

    This should be funny.
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  4. x - calli

    x - calli Guest

    lol, once again youre completely manipulating my sense of reality. i dont have time to philisophically figure it all out.. until then, i follow my intellectual instincts. you could say im a gambler... i place my bet on this world and life having meaning to it. with this bet, i could win or i could lose, depending on whether theres meaning or not. but if i bet on there being no meaning... it would be like betting that the house wont be able to pay out the jackpot. whether i "win or lose" that bet, im still gonna lose.

    who knows, maybe peoples lives are writing books in some great library in the sky. why not improve some of the stories...

    ahh i see, that clears it up for me.

    so the mole would be someone reading all the books trying to find the final truth there, when hes looking in the wrong place... those books might help, but the truth is in his present existence that he keeps avoiding.

    interesting idea about eternity.. if paradise is always in the future, how can we get there, right? lol.

    check out this poem by rudagi, a persian poet -


    live in joy with joyous black-eyed girls
    for life is just a tale, a breath.
    be open to the present,
    silent on the past.
    all i want is scented tresses,
    the houri-sprung moon-faced one.
    happy he who gave and could take pleasure,
    unhappy he who neither took nor gave.
    this world is wind and cloud and mirage.
    pour more wine, for what will be, will be.



    epicurean, i know, but i like the sentiment.
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  5. Yahunyahti

    Yahunyahti New Member

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    Unless of course your freedom from this world, your liberation, your "kingdom of heaven" that you are looking for is entirely dependent upon your ability to see this world for what it is. So many Christian people expect a "next" life. But, what did Yeshua (Jesus) say? "The Kingdom is not some far off place to be found. Nobody will say to you, 'Here it is!' or 'There it is!" for the Kingdom of God is within you."
    If you are a Muslim, Mohammed said it in this way, "The one who knows himself knows Allah. Allah is nearer to you than your own jugular vein."

    However, this self is not the identity self, it is the unconscious self. It is not the dream self, it is the self that is dreaming it is the dream self.

    Why believe that there are stars? Because you can see them, right? What if you were blind? What if you are blind? Wouldn't you rather be able to look up and see the stars overhead? We, all of us as a whole, as a singular super-consciousness are the Divine, God, The Tao, etc.

    Psalm 82:6 - "I have said, 'Ye are gods; all of you are children of the Most High. But you will die like mere men.'"


    Yes

    We can't be there. It must be here.


    Check out this poem by Lao Tzu in the Tao Te Ching (Verse 20)

    " If we could abolish knowledge and wisdom
    Then people would profit a hundredfold;
    If we could abolish duty and justice
    Then harmonious relationships would form;
    If we could abolish artifice and profit
    Then waste and theft would disappear.

    Yet such remedies treat only symptoms
    And so they are inadequate.

    People need personal remedies:
    Reveal your naked self and embrace your original nature;
    Bind your self-interest and control your ambition;
    Forget your habits and simplify your affairs."



    and verse 16

    " Empty the self completely;
    Embrace perfect peace.
    The world will rise and move;
    Watch it return to rest.
    All the flourishing things
    Will return to their source.

    This return is peaceful;
    It is the flow of nature,
    An eternal decay and renewal.
    Accepting this brings enlightenment,
    Ignoring this brings misery.

    Who accepts nature's flow becomes all-cherishing;
    Being all-cherishing he becomes impartial;
    Being impartial he becomes magnanimous;
    Being magnanimous he becomes natural;
    Being natural he becomes one with the Way;
    Being one with the Way he becomes immortal:
    Though his body will decay, the Way will not."



    It's a good poem.
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  6. Yahunyahti

    Yahunyahti New Member

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    You may think me silly, ridiculous or even foolish . . . and I am, but remember this always: We are rewarded or punished by our actions and not for them. Whether we dwell in heaven or hell, our environment need not change, but only our frame of mind. One may be in a cage and be free or out in society and be enslaved.
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  7. Edmund Kemper

    Edmund Kemper New Member

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    menaz

    is criminal behavior genetic?
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  8. Yahunyahti

    Yahunyahti New Member

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    Why bother asking him that? You know the kid doesn't know what he's talkin about.
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  9. ghet is as stubborn as a dog with a bone
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  10. I will crush you.













    How's it going? :D
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  11. going good my saggitarian brother at birth
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  12. For those of you that don't know.

    Brit Boi Gee and I have the same birthday.

    Freaky.
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  13. McGirth

    McGirth New Member

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    Yet couldn't the opposite also be said to be true?

    For an individual, a willingness to submit to another can increase the rate of survival, by not 'butting heads' with others seeking power and also if the master grants things that increase the chance of survival and procreation (for example, a large salary). By submitting to someone with greater control, the one with lesser control can ensures his survival. This "one with greater control" need not even be an individual, it could be say, a corporation, state, organization, ideology, etc.

    IF anything the evolutionary need isn't for individuals to control reality FOR THEMSELVES but simply to have reality controlled in some form or other by their group/masters. By having reality controlled, there are more resources, assuming that the individual has sufficient resources to ensure his survival and to procreate - then this sort of situation would be preferable from an evolutionary perspective.
    In sum, evolution promotes GROUP control of reality - not individual control. (think worker ants working in unison) As a consequence of group control - evolution may promote a desire to submit rather than dominate.
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  14. Sodium

    Sodium I Get Computers Putin'

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    thats all true but under this theory control isn't defined flatly as just subjugation over things.

    I defined it as: "the desire to get what you want and the way one would go about doing that" so as you can see its a pretty broad definition which could include many different... methods, lets say.

    thus submission to another would still fit under this definition of control in the sense that 1. there is a desire for something (it can provide what I want) \

    and

    2. some method of some sort is employed in order to achieve it (i have to submit to its desires to get what i want)


    Is this not still control?


    lets try to run an example through the filter of this theory.

    i work as a machinist for a transit bus manufacturing company. i've been working there for 10 years now. i make very good money but the work is very hard and The boss is a real asshole. he gives me a hard time every single day. sometimes i wish i could kill him. in addition every day after work my hands are hurt and my body is sore. but i make good money and this makes me happy.

    in this example the machinist wanted that big fat money and saw working in this hellish realm as a method for achieving it. in other words it was his unique strategy for getting what he wanted.

    though he is being used by them to get what they want, he is still in turn using them to get what he wants.

    both the subjugator and the subjugated are thus similar, except for the simple fact they use different method/stratgegies to get the unique thing that they want. it only appears to look like submissive cooperation at the surface. underneath, however - it is selfish (like the dawkins kind of selfish) promotion and attainment of one's own desires.



    as you can see, in the end, even submission can still be a form of control.
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  15. Sodium

    Sodium I Get Computers Putin'

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    besides the real interesting part is the way people react to getting their control strategies violated. i think this is ultimately the root to all problems like depression,anxiety, rage whatever. thats the real point of this theory
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  16. Fight or flight...

    Or capitulate.

    I still prefer flight. We as a species aren't done here by a long shot.
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  17. McGirth

    McGirth New Member

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    im sort of tired/drunk right now so maybe my response isn't all that great!
    but,
    in your theory how would foresight/intelligence and control interact?
    (think about the implications of foresight/greater control and depression for instance, it seems to contradict reality)

    Also, "getting what one wants" is not neccesarily linked to survival. If one wants Your version of "control" is thus not neccessarily linked to evolution, at best its a loose connection. For example, i could want sex with 100s of women with protection, which has ultimately no effect on my evolutionary traits getting passed on since i don't have any children. Or, i could want chocolat icecream, this also, perhaps more obviously has no relation to survival. So basically in the way you defined control, there is no reason why 'control' would be linked to survival or evolution if it is "the desire to get what you want and the way one would go about doing that". That part struck me as being tacked on.
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  18. Sodium

    Sodium I Get Computers Putin'

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    Organisms that think do so for a reason. They have to find mates, avoid predators, find food etc...

    essentially, we think because we must figure out ways to survive and procreate.

    Evolution has made us do these things through the mechanism of wanting. to achieve these wants its necessary to be "controlling". by "controlling" we can say in the sense that they must organize effective strategies to get what they want.

    Organisms that fail to organize effective strategies to get what they want - well, end up never getting what they want! thus a thinking organism *must* be controlling to get what they want. this is necessarily true.

    and so they must be controlling - by default - to survive, procreate and ultimately to even exist. i'm honestly surprised you would challenge this point.



    and your examples of control (ice cream and unprotected sex) fall under the category of humans just being weird. we do silly and ultimately counterproductive things all the time. human behavior is not limited to only the most effective strategies of survival. everyone has a different idea of what effective survival for themselves is.

    why does the alcoholic throw away his life by drinking? what is he running from? what is he trying to get? well who knows. but however what we do know is that he wants something and is using alcohol to get it.

    if i could speculate i would categorize it as a mutation of the original evolutionary desire to want/control in that he wants to be happy but has chosen an ineffective way to do it.




    i think you're having trouble understanding these concepts due to your lumping of humanity together as though it were one giant mound when in reality it is composed of many unique individuals - each with unique wants and desires and unique strategies for achieving those unique wants and desires. your thinking is inherently flawed because of this.
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  19. Sodium

    Sodium I Get Computers Putin'

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    uh i dont understand what your saying. you need to explain me more easy for the
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  20. McGirth

    McGirth New Member

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    Your theory seems to have 2 main points.
    1-The link between Survival/Evolution and a universal drive for control
    2-The link of the universal drive for control to individuals (or groups) underlying psychology when faced with obstacles in their subjective reality.

    The theory is not deductive, so I think even adressing the first part of the theory and removing the link to evolutionary theory, the second part still needs to be adressed independently.

    CONCERNING THE FIRST PART:
    I think i see what your saying. your saying that:
    1-All humans need to control things
    2-Control implies getting what one wants and knowing how to
    3-what one wants (in your sense of the term) are things directly linked to both individual and species survival (ie. procreation, food, water, shelter)


    I think it can be simplied in this way:
    1-All humans need to control things
    2-Control implies getting what one and one's species NEEDS and knowing how to obtain it

    The "weird" examples are part of the human condition as well and cannot be denied. If your saying that evolution makes it so that everyone must desire to control ultimately to survive, yet every generation there are literally millions is not billions of people that do stuff completely unlinked to survival, that in fact, counter-productive - then how can your theory account for these?

    What are these, mutations? anomelies?

    If you want a theory of human nature - it would make sense to ground it in mans strongest desires that everyone has: i.e. NECCESITY but not as any sort of evolutionary response/basic drive.

    Although it is true that man MUST control to survive - the fact that man very very often has irrational wants tells us that which binds man neccesarily IS NOT NECCESARILY some sort of evolved instinctual drive to control.

    Thus, your theory cannot be at the base of human nature. OR you need to account for a wider swath of human motivations.

    Also, i don't know if you know this, but your idea is very similar to nietzsche's universal will to power theory (or at least my reconstruction of it lol... because he wrote in aphorisms so its half how i happen to have put them together by linking key terms). The difference is he accounts for the seemingly irrational shit people do.

    Concerning the Second Part
    I think your neglecting the interaction of different drives for control of different people/groups and their effects on reality. (this is more of an expansion of your theory than a critique)
    One person could seek to control reality and this could including controlling someone else and their resources.
    I think the emotional responses differ when one of is faced with "reality" as in reality as controlled by nature/god VERSUS when one is faced by "reality" which is really the result of someone elses drive for control. This could stem from different degrees of maliability to control of "reality".


    The last point I made in my other post was about the interaction between intelligence/foresight and emotional responses. Presumably those with greater foresight would have greater control, and thus would ultimately be less depressed/etc. This dosen't seem to be the case, since I think its fairly true that ignorence is bliss.
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