A quote that applies to writers here...

Discussion in 'Writer's Block' started by Anaphora, Jul 23, 2004.

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  1. allnakey

    allnakey Sex is no fun by yourself

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    maybe people in here dont write to improve, they write just to... every think of that, it is a form of theropy
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  2. Your intention was to offend mine wasn't to frustrate.

    Still, Seeing as you haven't answered the questions I gave put throughout my posts here, I will try once more, hoping that you could atleast direct your comments directly to what i am saying.

    your only advice has been to appreciate language more than experience and feelings, yet you fail to give any examples of what works in a poem and what does not. Why not give us some examples from the realm where someone continues to produce work that is not upto par, and why.

    So now you are saying the poetry is neither good nor bad. yet you label the realms poetry as bad? Didn't you use the word crappy? A lot of it exists to be felt, im sure, and not just to try and better what they have. I try and look at the content to enjoy it and see if it inspires me--not to pick it apart.

    Is there a law that says people cannot post criticism? a lot have said that they welcome it, and use it.

    okay, so say it was the opposite. People always criticised, nobody just enjoyed it for what it was, and people suggested what should be changed to make it better. Who is the person who should be listened to most? The most well read person? Someone who has got a degree in creative writing? someone who you think is the most imaginative? the common reader? Even if you recommend a poem be changed and for what reason, you can line up another 5 people to disagree with you. So where now you may say a person has improved, another would say that they got worse, and why? because it is just opinions and personal tastes of fitting language.
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  3. predicate

    predicate New Member

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    Examples of what works in a poem:
    Read Stephen Adams' "Poetic Designs" for general introduction to poetic terms. For those who are partial to free verse, read Charles O. Hartman's "Free Verse: an Essay on Prosody" for starters.

    One example from the realm:
    woefully Bestowed by Brit Boi Gee

    In all of time which lay its burdens
    deep in the soul which cannot rest
    In all of the youth and all its use
    still cannot be soothed by the breast

    In the fantasies of sweet children
    the man is being pricked with life
    and so shall be the contradiction
    to the rose who becomes his wife

    In all the fancies and witless dreams
    the mirrors starkly reflect the err
    in the light passing of the night
    the heaviest woes in life occur

    In all the fading memories of summer
    winter approaches to alert the heart
    and although the blood runs thick as mud
    the coldness can make it barely start


    Main problem: vagueness. Many of your ideas begin with "in all of" which suggests that you will explain that which all of those "in all of" ideas have in common. Instead, you have written nothing to connect all of the phrases together, leaving the whole poem one utterly incoherent, ungrammatical mess. It's impossible to pull out one message, one idea, one sentence from the whole. Some of it just fails to make sense: "In all of the youth and all its use/ still cannot be soothed by the breast" In all of the use of youth? What does that mean? Youth has a use? You suggest here that all of youth (and its enigmatic use) cannot be soothed by the breast. You never suggest that youth needs to be soothed to begin with. Perhaps you mean "infancy" when you say "youth," but then you would assume that infancy has some use (perhaps more explicit than the use of youth), which is silly, pointless, and confusing.

    In the fantasies of sweet children
    the man is being pricked with life
    and so shall be the contradiction
    to the rose who becomes his wife

    A useless stanza. Children have fantasies of men being pricked with life? Life pricks? The meaning is obscure. And what contradiction? What is contradicting what? A flower becomes a woman, and that contradicts either the fantasies of the children, or the man being pricked by life (since life pricks, all of a sudden).

    More meaninglessness: winter alerts the heart of what? A heart has stopped (I would assume so, since coldness can make it barely start (and why "barely"?)), what mirrors starkly reflect the err (and the reason you chose the word "err," apart from a forced rhyme is?).

    I'm not going to spend any more time on the equally meaningless following stanzas. I used the first two to show how utterly incoherent you are, how ungrammatical you are (grammar is, after all, how we make sense of language. If there is no grammar, then we can't make sense of the message). You got too caught up in trying to sound abstract and tripped over your own feet. But this is just the content of the poem.

    As for the form itself, the poem sucks again. The poem is neither accentual, syllabic, or accentual-syllabic. The first stanza is 4-4-4-3, second 3-4-4-3, 4-4-4-4, 4-4-4-4. Maybe you might want to defend yourself and claim that this is free verse, or pseudo-free verse, since this makes attempts to be formed, but fails. The third stanza is particularly awful, where the third line has a stress fall on the meaningless "of." The metre between stresses is random.

    Furthermore, the one thing in the poem that gives some effect is the "In all" repetition, but it is far from binding any of the statements together (apart from having any grammatical closure, which I already stated above). Some begin "In all the," others "in all of the" "in all" "in the" etc.

    Otherwise, your word selection is meaningless. Your descriptive words are as follows: deep, starkly, light, witless, heaviest, fading, thick. Any unity between those words? Any reason you selected those words, specifically, and not others?

    Enough. This whole poem is a mess, and rife with uselessness. You should be able to justify every word and every foot of the poem. Is that enough to show you where your poem is not up to par and why? So my suggestions are to first read those two books (not the bibles of poetry, but a good start) and learn how to use poetic form to your advantage. Learn how metre works, and how crappy metre throws off the pleasure of reading a poem. Use words that enhance your meaning and remove useless words. I can't help you with content selection. I can only tell you to start off on easy ideas first, then, once you can adequately express yourself, move your way up to more complex ideas. Don't be so overly artfaggish that you can't be understood. "Those who know they are profound strive for clarity. Those who would like to seem profound to the crowd strive for obscurity." - Nietzsche. That quote is perhaps the most important thing I can tell you about content selection. Memorize that quote, and apply it to everything you write from now on.

    ...
    test
  4. predicate

    predicate New Member

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    I never said that poetry altogether is neither good nor bad. I meant to say "In their eyes" poetry is neither good nor bad.

    "I try and look at the content to enjoy it and see if it inspires me--not to pick it apart. "
    --And you are perhaps assuming that I come here to pick it apart? I read poetry because I want to experience meaningful moments or thoughts. I picked apart your poem because you asked me to, and I showed you how the thought is barely, if at all, meaningful, and how the form, language, metaphors, and grammar, do your message harm.

    "Is there a law that says people cannot post criticism? a lot have said that they welcome it, and use it."
    --You do a wonderful job of misreading me. I want people to criticize others. But, well, you hear allnakay: people don't want criticism. They want the support group therapy. I want these people to become better poets, while people just want to get shit off their chest, and have their thoughts masquerade as awful poetry. It pisses me off because I love poetry, I read it daily and memorize it almost as much. To see people write poetry this horribly is not what bothers me. It's their complacence, and the reinforcement of bad habits through flattering responses that bothers me.

    "okay, so say it was the opposite. People always criticised, nobody just enjoyed it for what it was, and people suggested what should be changed to make it better."
    --Poetry is a means of expression. People are expressing themselves poorly (as I have shown in your example). If people learn how to express themselves better, their poetry will be enjoyed far more.

    "Who is the person who should be listened to most? The most well read person? Someone who has got a degree in creative writing? someone who you think is the most imaginative? the common reader? ..."
    --There would not be an authoritative figure in poetry criticism. There would simply be people asking questions about the poem. Why did you switch up the metre here? Why did you insert that word there? Why did you repeat this here? What were you trying to achieve with your form? People would ask questions such as these to challenge the poet and make him more aware of the entire meaningfulness, the unity of every factor of the poem.

    "The bad writer believes that sincerity of feeling will be enough, and pins her faith on the power of experience."

    I hope now you see why sincerity of feeling is not enough when it comes to poetry. Your form, no matter how sincere the feeling, obscured not only your message but your meaning.
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  5. 'in all of' may not neccesarily suggest that I will go on to explain or have to describe what you expect, no.

    The content/ theme running throughout the poem connects the phrases together. The heart of the poem. I'm sorry you could not connect the title with all the ironies of the piece and link them like I thought I did.

    why did you find it impossible, when others didn't?

    anyways,

    Its irony. all the youth> children, still cannot be soothed by the breast'. linking to the woe and also that the feminine bearer of life still cannot protect the child from the world. The use of youth was to further highlight the irony at the ending of the line.

    yes I would say youth has many uses. So because i didnt say..
    'youth must be soothed' before I placed the line it is bad?' Am I in debt to what you demand of my poem?

    Oh its useless? you know I was going to put some effort into trying to explain the poem, but you haven't said one possitive thing about it, and Wouldn't even if you wanted to. anyway, briefly, a children in a fantasy world being pricked with life, means the real world flooding in, which here would be interpreted as being woeful, atleast to me. The contradiction is another prick between a man and a woman.relationship and distances between two people.The rose is the beauty of the woman.

    Sorry you found it meaningless. Winter doesn't have to alert the heart to anything If I dont want it to. I can just say winter alerts the heart. what do you associate with winter? cold maybe? cold-feelings alerts the heart to pain maybe? Thats how I saw it. ERR was used to show the imperfections sometimes people feel when looking in the mirror, or a forlorn reflection of life. A line that has more than one meaning? dont have a fit. 'Barely' was used to convey that the heart even though feels woe, can begin or finds a way to keep going.But ofcourse we could find a lot misunderstandings, as my imagination and life and experiences have been very different from yours. No need to call it meaningless, seeing as YOU are asking me what it means.

    I wasn't trying to sound abstract, but you may see it abstractly. Not all the poets in the realm did though. what do you mean JUST the content. The content is everything to me. thats what I guess we don't have in common.

    I have failed at what exactly? writing a proper poem? a 4 4 4 4 makes it better? you would appreciate it more? thats sad to me. I just wrote how I was feeling in the words which came to me at the time.

    No reason. Do I need a reason? I don't approach a poem thinking about which words I may include, I just write. This to you may seem as my lack of care, but Im not trying to please anyone when I write.

    I can justify the words, and tell you what they mean to me.

    it is not enough, because you criticised it extensively while asking me questions about the poem and its meanings at the same time. This shows that you had a bee in your bonnet and was just looking for a put down any which way you could muster one up. You can knock the form all day long, but You haven't understood my perception of the poems content all the way to the end. So even though you say it may not be upto par, not all is convinced because of your reasons.
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  6. My advantage for what? people like you?

    I thought it flowed okay.

    something we may never agree on.

    I wouldn't want you to help me with content selection.

    I don't think that everyone who wants to be profound strives for obscurity. and clarity may vary as it did when I wrote the poem and you read it.
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  7. that depends on whos reading it , doesn't it?

    some people do write just for themselves, ya kno. Just because you find it awful doesn't mean that it did not move someone else to tears.

    you assume that all flattery and compliments are not sincere by the reader. I dont think flattery is the right word anyway. as it suggests people are insincere when they say they understand or like something. Give the people here some credit.

    I would rather write in your opinion bad poetry with sincere feelings, than attempt to free you from obscurity and give you a more enjoyable message and meaning.
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  8. predicate

    predicate New Member

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    Well then, fuck it. I did my best to criticize, just as you asked me to, but instead you wanted me to say nice things about your poem. There's my argument in a nutshell. People don't want criticism, they want flattery.

    How about this:

    "Nice drop. I felt it. [insert random line] I liked that line a lot. Keep writing!"

    I spent at least a solid hour trying to understand your poem. I read it over countless times, and did my best to explain where it could be improved. This is the most extensive response to a poem that you will find in all of the poetry realm, and damn near the only sincere one.

    You learn far more from your failures than you do from your successes. But, fuck, you don't want criticism, you don't want to learn anything or improve your poetry. You want flattery. I said nothing nice at all, so everything I said doesn't count.

    "I dont think flattery is the right word anyway. as it suggests people are insincere when they say they understand or like something. Give the people here some credit."
    --Are you shitting me? I checked the realm a few hours ago, and saw six threads responded to in 20 minutes BY THE SAME GUY. You're telling me that he went to the same lengths of understanding your message as I have?

    You wanted an honest response so bad and I gave you one so extensive that I had to cut it in half because it was too big to post at once. Fuck it. Participate in your circle jerk all you want.
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  9. I didn't want flattery, but maybe some balance to your negativity towards me in trying to prove your point of criticism may have been better recieved.I wouldn't have minded so much if you hadn't have called it meaningless. I do appreciate where you are coming from in terms of how words are recieved by the reader and conveying a clear message. But this ofcourse depends on who is reading, and why the writer is writing the poem. There were many things in my poem that we saw differently, and where as you are saying that makes my poem bad, I am saying that it is only natural for that to happen. I described to you what the lines meant to me and I cannot do more. That doesn't make them wrong or right, and that is my argument.

    THIS IS ART! one mans failure is another mans grand possession hanging on the wall. I learn about poetry, As to whether I want to improve, I accept that I am open to changing things about my poetry, but I also accept that all I have at the end of the day, is ME and my poetry. Nobody to impress, just feelings to convey. And If one day the sun moves me to feel like a duck on a river, because at that moment the sun was peeking through the clouds and illuminating the duck. I will write about it and not expect everyone to get it. and for this reason I approach other poets without criticism of their content because I know how it feels to often sense you you are looking at something arkwardly, and also appreciate that poetry is something deeply personal, and I approach each poet and their work delicately because of this.

    Maybe not, but the problem is you misunderstood it too in some places. Thats just the way it is. Did you fail to notice the other responses to my poem? Some got something from it, some didn't. You and Xero were different for example. Are you saying his response was just flattery because you think you know more than him? Get over yourself man. Don't expect to be greeted with open arms when you call everyones poetry here trash. I would suggest you change your approach.
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  10. Anaphora

    Anaphora was here

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    Yea, I'm too lazy to read all of brit boi's comments.

    I used to give detailed critiques, and sometimes people would like it, but for the most part, I was stretching to find nice things to say to break the news to them... there were definitely a few exceptions... one girl, shit, what was her name, ras or something, had some really nice poems...

    I've given up on the arguements, but Predicate, if you could break down a poem for me I would much appreciate your criticisms. I'll go reply to some other poems and post it right now... I stopped posting because as you said, no one gives you worthwhile info, and I had to read 3 poems, which chances are weren't too good in order to post... I'll edit a link in here when I post


    Here:
    http://board.rapmusic.com/showthread.php?t=777553

    It's free verse just to warn you though.
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  11. sagacious infant

    sagacious infant reflecting the sun

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    Well...this here ain't the only poetry site. lol It's not even a poetry site - it's rapmusic.com. There are plenty of poetry sites and circles where you can receive whatever responses you want! As stated, everyone's intentions in posting may not be the same - it's just plain rude to insult the folks who post though. However, I don't think the original post insulted - it was a nice subtle way of pointing out a so called problem. The way this topic has progressed has just been a tad mean though...*cough*predicate*cough*

    that's my two cents...feel free to ask for change...
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  12. ~Eloquent

    ~Eloquent Narcissistic....

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    i have a strong sense of freedom of expression...
    and experience is what gives you an edge in just about everything you come across...

    some people have huge ass egos and think their above all

    but being humble is a way i keep myself on point

    some people,i think they get kinda jealous
    cuz they see that someones felt,and that they think they dont deserve the credibility that they do themselves..

    simply cuz the cat isnt known to well in a certain site...

    anyways ive always found it easier to bleed pure emotion

    its my style

    personification and all that can be challenging and fun

    when i was in english class in high school,i really wasnt into writing

    but i couldve benefited alot from some of the certain styles of poetry that were taught...

    im always lookin for ways to expand...

    cats can say im an awful writer cuz i dont go thru all the immense styles that i could if i had unlimited time to learn...

    but it really dont matter
    cuz theirs alot of people that when they see someone driven,they would like to steer them off course...

    not to be mean...
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  13. Surreal The A.D. Prophet

    Surreal The A.D. Prophet Wondrous Poetic

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    Anaphora; from now on, if you start an argument that you think is interesting, email me.

    wow. this is funny. but you ALL lose.

    this is how it has gone and will go for all eternity;

    Anaphora, predicate, me> "choosing to write, you should pursue craft. betterment of your ability. writing continuously is a choice to improve."

    Brit and co.> "no, writing is enough"

    two arguments.

    not interection between the arguments.

    give it up.

    *i am proud. LoL succint representation.*



    P.S. predicate...since when have you existed? LoL never seen you...but it's not like i stay on the site for more than 2 weeks at a time. but ummmm...have you looked at my posts? almost all of my arguments with brit are sparked by my criticism of a piece...and anaphora does it too, this site is for the most part, people wanting to "share" their work. but that is not to say no one else uses the site.


    predicate...you are officially being quoted in my sig. no arguements.
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  14. Surreal The A.D. Prophet

    Surreal The A.D. Prophet Wondrous Poetic

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    LMAO this line is CLASSIC
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  15. runofthejamill

    runofthejamill or not.

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    For me, the main aim of poetry, or writing it, is to express your feeling/emotions/opinions/views/to tell a story etc, and if u have conveyed ur point across by whatever method, then that means that u have succeeded. If people like it, then that is a plus.
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  16. ~Eloquent

    ~Eloquent Narcissistic....

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    thats how i feel...
    your self expression
    however you feel comfortable doing that
    i think thats way more important,
    than to just write with more traditional styles
    test
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